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	<title>Comments for the Electric Monk</title>
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	<link>http://emonk.org</link>
	<description>a many-brained bioethics blog</description>
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		<title>Comment on Your health vs. my conscience by Paul</title>
		<link>http://emonk.org/2009/05/your-health-vs-my-conscience/comment-page-1/#comment-555</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 21:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emonk.org/?p=226#comment-555</guid>
		<description>rnadler, are you OK then with situations in which the only pharmacy around is one that has employee and employer buy-in as an anti-contraception pharmacy? (The effectiveness of emergency contraception declines 50% in twelve hours; so a delay in access increases the likelihood of an unwanted pregnancy.) 

If you are not OK with this, then your solution seems to fail. If you are OK with it, we still need to know why pharmacy policies will be allowed to be based upon some values (Catholic ones, say), but not others (White Pride ones, e.g.). This is not to say that these two perspectives are equally odious--they&#039;re obviously not. But that doesn&#039;t change the fact that we seem to need some criterion by which to rule some exclusionary policies as admissible and others as impermissible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rnadler, are you OK then with situations in which the only pharmacy around is one that has employee and employer buy-in as an anti-contraception pharmacy? (The effectiveness of emergency contraception declines 50% in twelve hours; so a delay in access increases the likelihood of an unwanted pregnancy.) </p>
<p>If you are not OK with this, then your solution seems to fail. If you are OK with it, we still need to know why pharmacy policies will be allowed to be based upon some values (Catholic ones, say), but not others (White Pride ones, e.g.). This is not to say that these two perspectives are equally odious&#8211;they&#8217;re obviously not. But that doesn&#8217;t change the fact that we seem to need some criterion by which to rule some exclusionary policies as admissible and others as impermissible.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Your health vs. my conscience by rnadler</title>
		<link>http://emonk.org/2009/05/your-health-vs-my-conscience/comment-page-1/#comment-554</link>
		<dc:creator>rnadler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 01:35:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emonk.org/?p=226#comment-554</guid>
		<description>These cases look a lot to me like a mismatch between personal and institutional values. People go to a pharmacy expecting a consistent set of background moral assumptions; after all, it&#039;s not &quot;The Roman Catholic Pharmacy.&quot; So, in the first place, pharmacies should be quite clear about what their employees are required and not required to be complicit in, and those who have objections can (presumably) find another place to work. (Or, if no such places spring up, such a pharmacist might consider that she&#039;s simply in the wrong line of work, i.e. that the whole field operates on a different moral system, and that her choice of career makes about as much sense as a Christian Scientist going to medical school.) Likewise, individuals can choose a pharmacy whose principles are consistent with their own moral beliefs - and ones that employ pharmacists who are on board with that.

So basically, the problem goes away if you situate choice at the institutional level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These cases look a lot to me like a mismatch between personal and institutional values. People go to a pharmacy expecting a consistent set of background moral assumptions; after all, it&#8217;s not &#8220;The Roman Catholic Pharmacy.&#8221; So, in the first place, pharmacies should be quite clear about what their employees are required and not required to be complicit in, and those who have objections can (presumably) find another place to work. (Or, if no such places spring up, such a pharmacist might consider that she&#8217;s simply in the wrong line of work, i.e. that the whole field operates on a different moral system, and that her choice of career makes about as much sense as a Christian Scientist going to medical school.) Likewise, individuals can choose a pharmacy whose principles are consistent with their own moral beliefs &#8211; and ones that employ pharmacists who are on board with that.</p>
<p>So basically, the problem goes away if you situate choice at the institutional level.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What&#8217;s wrong with incest? by Dmitri Pisartchik</title>
		<link>http://emonk.org/2009/03/whats-wrong-with-incest/comment-page-1/#comment-553</link>
		<dc:creator>Dmitri Pisartchik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 16:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emonk.org/?p=124#comment-553</guid>
		<description>Adam, with all due respect, you have strongly claimed that sexual intercourse between siblings is wrong but failed to say anything about the wrongness. Just what is wrong about it? From the length you devote to it my guess is that you seem to imply that by having sex with my sibling we will become more than siblings. But that is trivially true. I become more than a stranger to someone once I have exchanged a greeting with them. I fail to see how this added layer makes the relationship wrong in any significant way. Furthermore, I simply cannot agree with your last statement. To say that &quot;we are capable of handling emotionally or psychologically&quot; incest demands evidence and I do not know of any valid psychological studies that have shown this to be the case.

Another point I want to address. &quot;The inclination, never mind the action, that one would like to engage in sexual intercourse with their direct sibling is a definite sign of inner confusion.&quot; This claim seems to be unacceptably vague. Just what would the siblings be confused about? Are you referring to the transference of feelings for some non-related person to my sibling? In all fairness, this seems to be covered in the conditions of the situation where we specifically state that the attraction is genuine and mutual and in that case I fail to see any kind of &quot;confusion&quot; that could be taking place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam, with all due respect, you have strongly claimed that sexual intercourse between siblings is wrong but failed to say anything about the wrongness. Just what is wrong about it? From the length you devote to it my guess is that you seem to imply that by having sex with my sibling we will become more than siblings. But that is trivially true. I become more than a stranger to someone once I have exchanged a greeting with them. I fail to see how this added layer makes the relationship wrong in any significant way. Furthermore, I simply cannot agree with your last statement. To say that &#8220;we are capable of handling emotionally or psychologically&#8221; incest demands evidence and I do not know of any valid psychological studies that have shown this to be the case.</p>
<p>Another point I want to address. &#8220;The inclination, never mind the action, that one would like to engage in sexual intercourse with their direct sibling is a definite sign of inner confusion.&#8221; This claim seems to be unacceptably vague. Just what would the siblings be confused about? Are you referring to the transference of feelings for some non-related person to my sibling? In all fairness, this seems to be covered in the conditions of the situation where we specifically state that the attraction is genuine and mutual and in that case I fail to see any kind of &#8220;confusion&#8221; that could be taking place.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What&#8217;s wrong with incest? by Adam</title>
		<link>http://emonk.org/2009/03/whats-wrong-with-incest/comment-page-1/#comment-552</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 05:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emonk.org/?p=124#comment-552</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m actually a psych major and the thought of a brother and sister wanting to be romantically involved is elementally wrong on more than a few levels. You don&#039;t need to be a psychologist to know that. The inclination, never mind the action, that one would like to engage in sexual intercourse with their direct sibling is a definite sign of inner confusion. I agree with previous posts, once a more serious relationship is established, no matter how brief or how often it occurs, that relationship takes precedence over any previous one. If you have sex with your best friend of four years, they are more than just your friend. They will always be more than just a friend. You can not negate a sexual experience, no matter how brief or seemingly inconsequential the interaction, a relationship can never be the same once it has reached the extreme of sexual intercourse. That kind of relationship between siblings is not something we are capable of handling emotionally or psychologically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m actually a psych major and the thought of a brother and sister wanting to be romantically involved is elementally wrong on more than a few levels. You don&#8217;t need to be a psychologist to know that. The inclination, never mind the action, that one would like to engage in sexual intercourse with their direct sibling is a definite sign of inner confusion. I agree with previous posts, once a more serious relationship is established, no matter how brief or how often it occurs, that relationship takes precedence over any previous one. If you have sex with your best friend of four years, they are more than just your friend. They will always be more than just a friend. You can not negate a sexual experience, no matter how brief or seemingly inconsequential the interaction, a relationship can never be the same once it has reached the extreme of sexual intercourse. That kind of relationship between siblings is not something we are capable of handling emotionally or psychologically.</p>
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		<title>Comment on So who gets the liver? by ckeathley</title>
		<link>http://emonk.org/2009/03/so-who-gets-the-liver/comment-page-1/#comment-546</link>
		<dc:creator>ckeathley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emonk.org/?p=79#comment-546</guid>
		<description>Interesting comments.  I find it interesting that the presumption is that the sighted person should get the organ because he would contribute more to the global community.  What if the sighted patient is a derelict and the blind man is governor of New York?  Does that change the answers?  How about a Solomonesque approach:  split the organ and give a portion to each recipient.  The liver is a multi-lobed organ of which we only require a portion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting comments.  I find it interesting that the presumption is that the sighted person should get the organ because he would contribute more to the global community.  What if the sighted patient is a derelict and the blind man is governor of New York?  Does that change the answers?  How about a Solomonesque approach:  split the organ and give a portion to each recipient.  The liver is a multi-lobed organ of which we only require a portion.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A game of musical uterus by ckeathley</title>
		<link>http://emonk.org/2009/04/a-game-of-musical-uterus/comment-page-1/#comment-545</link>
		<dc:creator>ckeathley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 02:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emonk.org/?p=160#comment-545</guid>
		<description>The decision to continue a pregnancy ultimately is that of the woman who is carrying the pregnancy, she incurs all the risk associated with pregnancy and therefore is the only one capable of balancing the risk:benefit ratio in any given circumstance.  A woman may factor in any number of issues in deciding whether to continue a pregnancy or not.  Is this an intended pregnancy or unintended?  Is there a support system for raising the child?  Is the pregnancy the result of a non-consensual act?  Are there medical conditions that increase the health risk associated with carrying a pregnancy to term?  Is there a genetic disorder in the fetus or other malformation?

The issues raised in the cases presented are really no different than any other case where a woman struggles with the decision to carry a pregnancy to term or to terminate.  Had either of the surrogates opted to terminate, we can no more say that decision was wrong than any other decision to terminate.

The larger ethical issue that arises out of these cases is the appropriateness of paid surrogacy.  Is paid surrogacy any different from an ethical standpoint than buying a kidney for transplant?  If a woman can rent out her uterus for financial gain, why can I not sell one of my kidneys for the same reason?  Certainly there is a role for surrogacy as there is a role for organ donation, but it should be an altruistic gift.  Donors or surrogates should not have to incur expense for their gift, but nor should there be financial profit for the donor/surrogate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The decision to continue a pregnancy ultimately is that of the woman who is carrying the pregnancy, she incurs all the risk associated with pregnancy and therefore is the only one capable of balancing the risk:benefit ratio in any given circumstance.  A woman may factor in any number of issues in deciding whether to continue a pregnancy or not.  Is this an intended pregnancy or unintended?  Is there a support system for raising the child?  Is the pregnancy the result of a non-consensual act?  Are there medical conditions that increase the health risk associated with carrying a pregnancy to term?  Is there a genetic disorder in the fetus or other malformation?</p>
<p>The issues raised in the cases presented are really no different than any other case where a woman struggles with the decision to carry a pregnancy to term or to terminate.  Had either of the surrogates opted to terminate, we can no more say that decision was wrong than any other decision to terminate.</p>
<p>The larger ethical issue that arises out of these cases is the appropriateness of paid surrogacy.  Is paid surrogacy any different from an ethical standpoint than buying a kidney for transplant?  If a woman can rent out her uterus for financial gain, why can I not sell one of my kidneys for the same reason?  Certainly there is a role for surrogacy as there is a role for organ donation, but it should be an altruistic gift.  Donors or surrogates should not have to incur expense for their gift, but nor should there be financial profit for the donor/surrogate.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Who should call the shots? by Gently</title>
		<link>http://emonk.org/2009/04/who-should-call-the-shots/comment-page-1/#comment-79</link>
		<dc:creator>Gently</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 04:03:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emonk.org/?p=167#comment-79</guid>
		<description>Well, some people are using the word &quot;rationing&quot;.  Liberals who support healthcare reforms to bring the US in line with other industrialized nations in offering universal healthcare, for example:

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=04&amp;year=2009&amp;base_name=paul_ryan_embraces_health_care

Meanwhile, Republicans conjure up the Rationing bogeyman to make healthcare reform seem ill-intentioned, for example congressman Wally Herger (R-CA):

http://www.house.gov/herger/eupdate_health_GovtCare_Feb09.shtml

Maybe we should just call it &quot;cost effectiveness&quot; like the Brits do and wink.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, some people are using the word &#8220;rationing&#8221;.  Liberals who support healthcare reforms to bring the US in line with other industrialized nations in offering universal healthcare, for example:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=04&#038;year=2009&#038;base_name=paul_ryan_embraces_health_care" rel="nofollow">http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=04&#038;year=2009&#038;base_name=paul_ryan_embraces_health_care</a></p>
<p>Meanwhile, Republicans conjure up the Rationing bogeyman to make healthcare reform seem ill-intentioned, for example congressman Wally Herger (R-CA):</p>
<p><a href="http://www.house.gov/herger/eupdate_health_GovtCare_Feb09.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.house.gov/herger/eupdate_health_GovtCare_Feb09.shtml</a></p>
<p>Maybe we should just call it &#8220;cost effectiveness&#8221; like the Brits do and wink.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Organ market globalism by Al Roth</title>
		<link>http://emonk.org/2009/03/organ-market-globalism/comment-page-1/#comment-70</link>
		<dc:creator>Al Roth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emonk.org/?p=131#comment-70</guid>
		<description>This is an interesting, complicated, and controversial subject alright.

For a variety of blog posts on organ markets and related matters, check out http://marketdesigner.blogspot.com/search/label/compensation%20for%20donors.

For a more general discussion of &quot;repugnant markets,&quot; you might be interested in my paper &quot;Repugnance as a constraint on markets,&quot; at http://kuznets.fas.harvard.edu/~aroth/papers/Repugnance.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an interesting, complicated, and controversial subject alright.</p>
<p>For a variety of blog posts on organ markets and related matters, check out <a href="http://marketdesigner.blogspot.com/search/label/compensation%20for%20donors" rel="nofollow">http://marketdesigner.blogspot.com/search/label/compensation%20for%20donors</a>.</p>
<p>For a more general discussion of &#8220;repugnant markets,&#8221; you might be interested in my paper &#8220;Repugnance as a constraint on markets,&#8221; at <a href="http://kuznets.fas.harvard.edu/~aroth/papers/Repugnance.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://kuznets.fas.harvard.edu/~aroth/papers/Repugnance.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on What&#8217;s wrong with incest? by Friends Or Lovers: Choosing The Right Direction &#124; Sandro Crown</title>
		<link>http://emonk.org/2009/03/whats-wrong-with-incest/comment-page-1/#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator>Friends Or Lovers: Choosing The Right Direction &#124; Sandro Crown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Apr 2009 16:52:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emonk.org/?p=124#comment-69</guid>
		<description>[...] the Electric Monk» Blog Archive » What’s wrong with incest? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Electric Monk» Blog Archive » What’s wrong with incest? [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on With or Without God? by Dmitri Pisartchik</title>
		<link>http://emonk.org/2009/03/with-or-without-god/comment-page-1/#comment-68</link>
		<dc:creator>Dmitri Pisartchik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Apr 2009 17:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emonk.org/?p=143#comment-68</guid>
		<description>Having been an atheist for a good while now I have come to a interesting conclusion, for myself anyway. Theism and atheism are simply philosophical, indeed metaphysical, positions and nothing more. I am increasingly skeptical as to the relevance of morality to to the debate over the existence of God. Morality will have to exist whether or not there is a God. It is not dependent on Gods existence, nor is it incompatible with it.  Both positions are equally plausible in my view. But, again, this is just a personal reflection.

To the thought experiment proposed above. It is indeed an interesting case, but I would disagree with some of John&#039;s conclusions. True, if there are only two people on the ship there is no one else to keep moral score. But, why are you so quick to discount the astronauts themselves? While this is a speculation, if I was in that situation I would very much care about my own internal scoreboard. It would matter to me that I have killed, regardless of who else is witness to the act. You seem to be assuming a rather Hobbesian conception of human nature and I do not think that it is all that justifiable. That being said, I am myself assuming a certain moral upbringing that would hold a norm against unjustified killing.

Interestingly enough, there has been a recent poll that suggests that Catholics are very much in line with the general opinion on many issues that are seen as divisive (homosexuality, abortion, etc):
http://www.gallup.com/poll/117154/Catholics-Similar-Mainstream-Abortion-Stem-Cells.aspx</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having been an atheist for a good while now I have come to a interesting conclusion, for myself anyway. Theism and atheism are simply philosophical, indeed metaphysical, positions and nothing more. I am increasingly skeptical as to the relevance of morality to to the debate over the existence of God. Morality will have to exist whether or not there is a God. It is not dependent on Gods existence, nor is it incompatible with it.  Both positions are equally plausible in my view. But, again, this is just a personal reflection.</p>
<p>To the thought experiment proposed above. It is indeed an interesting case, but I would disagree with some of John&#8217;s conclusions. True, if there are only two people on the ship there is no one else to keep moral score. But, why are you so quick to discount the astronauts themselves? While this is a speculation, if I was in that situation I would very much care about my own internal scoreboard. It would matter to me that I have killed, regardless of who else is witness to the act. You seem to be assuming a rather Hobbesian conception of human nature and I do not think that it is all that justifiable. That being said, I am myself assuming a certain moral upbringing that would hold a norm against unjustified killing.</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, there has been a recent poll that suggests that Catholics are very much in line with the general opinion on many issues that are seen as divisive (homosexuality, abortion, etc):<br />
<a href="http://www.gallup.com/poll/117154/Catholics-Similar-Mainstream-Abortion-Stem-Cells.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.gallup.com/poll/117154/Catholics-Similar-Mainstream-Abortion-Stem-Cells.aspx</a></p>
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